On July 2, 2007, Christie joined the Toronto Argonauts of the Canadian Football League by signing a practice roster agreement with the team. Hallo.com/mattfred. And as Jimmy Akin has pointed out, if Mary needed to be sinless in order to give birth to the Messiah, then her mother would have to be sinless and her mother would have to be sinless all the way back to Eve and so it doesnt work. Well, in your example, its talking about father. Thank you very much, Trent. The experience of over thirty years of singing professionally has taught him how to tune into the lover that lives in us all. In his work The Bible is a Catholic Book, Akin notes of the Pharisees canon that the boundaries of this collection were still somewhat fuzzy. So in the Septuagint, Genesis 19:9, Lots daughters use the same Greek word, I know not man. So were they engaged in a vow of perpetual virginity? Its nice to be able to go through all of these scripture passages. I cant go into that in detail here in the answer, but I might talk about it in a future podcast episode. Thats all I wanted to say. Your view is that the word adelphos, what it means in the brethren is that its talking about Jesus and siblings, they have the same mother but they have different fathers. Like infant baptism, the cessation of charismatic gifts, for example. Same with Matthew 28. Okay. Singing professionally for over 30 years, Steve Christie is a seasoned performer. Im not sure that that is in Genesis 19:9. His primary concern is to simply say that Jesus had no earthly father. Yeah. People are familiar with this one about why Protestant Bibles are smaller. Really enjoying this. He went on to score 1108 points in 156 consecutive regular season and post-season games and still stands as the top scorer in Bills' history. Ill point to Mary in sacred tradition. Mark - Hello Christie, thank you so much for . Of the 336 field goals Steve Christie kicked during his 15-year National Football League career, none was more important than the one he booted in overtime on Jan. 3, 1993, at the stadium then known as Rich. And thats why I went [inaudible 01:47:13] and why I argued, how is it used specifically in the New Testament? SeanMcDowell.org. He was put on a cross. However, the earliest evidence for this alleged event comes 600 years afterward, in the second century after Christ. And she doesnt mention sin in this part of Luke one. The other reason was that as a Canadian citizen, playing one game in the CFL, would be great way to finish his career. Paul himself reaffirms this in Romans 9:11. And I think thats something that we do find. In order to justify that claim, Christie would have to present a standard that tells us what writings prior to Christ are inspired and why we should accept that particular standard. So if Andrew is Jonahs son, too, because Andrew is the brother of Peter, then why cant James, the brother of Jesus, also be the son of Mary? Heres my thought on that. Oh, wow. In fact, the term original sin like immaculate conception is not found in the Bible or in the church fathers until the time of St. Augustine. Did I have one other thing here? Many of you know I now have a Catholic Lo-Fi channel. Ravi Zacharias has long been recognized as one of the most respected of Christian apologists. Then Psalm 69:5 is applied non literally to Jesus and I would say Psalm 69:8 about mothers and brethren is applied non literally as well. . (Hebrews 11:35b, 2 Maccabees 6,7), Is the Apocrypha or Deutero-Canonical Books Part of the Bible? So yeah, this is awesome. I mean, today there are Roman Catholics, about 70% of American Catholics that [inaudible 01:32:21] substantiation, let me finish-. Im not sure. Though a mere chip-shot, from 32 yards, the three-pointer enabled . But I mean, some of the early ones, Id probably Definitely not Judas Iscariot. And the other issue is a fact, is that even though a Pope would not be allowed to declare something that goes against what the magisterium teaches and the magisterium I doubt would ever teach about worshiping Mary, whats interesting is that according to Lumen Gentium, it says that even when the Pope is not speaking ex cathedral, you must actually listen to what the Pope says. He is the host of the popular, award-winning film series on salvation history, . But if we just read Scripture and read it fairly and charitably, theres nothing that contradicts, so far, Mary being mother of God, ever Virgin, or being immaculately conceived. Christie is currently President of Relative Goal Sports and Entertainment Management LLC., certified as a Canadian Football League contract advisor and has represented numerous musical acts in both the United States and Scotland. So this would be an argument saying that it is fitting, therefore it is true. The Greek root is used in Matthew 1:21 to describe Jesus who will save his people from their sins. The fact that Mary died doesnt prove that she committed a sin any more than the fact that Jesus died does not prove that he inherited sin or committed a sin. Now in the Septuagint as well as in the New Testament, adelphos is used to talk about people who have the same father but different mothers. And he went on to say that Muslims and Christians worship the same God when in fact they dont because the Christian God is Jesus and the Muslim God is Allah, and is not Jesus. 18. Luke 2:7 describes Jesus as the firstborn of Mary, although the Greek word [foreign language 00:04:11] translated firstborn, can indicate firstborn opening the womb and is used this way in the New Testament. Steve will point to Jesus in sacred scripture. He says, of Jacob and Esau in Rebeccas womb, they were not yet born and had done nothing, either good or bad.This means children who die in early childhood represent millions of examples of people who never committed a personal sin in their entire lives. If anything like the parents hes a good kid, but I cant imagine by the age of seven that his oldest child hasnt sinned one time. But again, this is another argument by exception because even if shes referring back to Hannah, the debate is about how these dogmas, whether or not theyre how theyre used in scripture. He took his wife, but knew her not until she had born a son and he called his name Jesus. But the Greek word for until, eos, does not always entail a reversal of condition. Communication, Canon, and Unbeliever Knowledge of God, Reformed Apologist (Ronald W. Di Giacomo). Philosophy program at Talbot. Steve Christie: According to Robert Sungenis, president of Catholic Apologetics International, unlike Jesus Ascension assumptions in the Bible are under the power of God not the individual being assumed. No, it doesnt. A Response to Pastor Chip Thornton's Anti-Catholic Newspaper Article. [inaudible 00:57:25] the son of Mary is odd. Were debating whether scripture contradicts it, and that has not been demonstrated here. In Isaiah 7:16 it talks about a time before a child knows how to refuse the evil and choose the good. So whether we are discussing the Marian dogmas, the papacy, the purpose of baptism or communion, or the biblical Canon, the real authority behind these debates is whether you trust in the sufficiency of God [inaudible 01:52:23] Scripture to reel itself to you or to the Magisterium, which often conflicts with it. So again, weve gone through a lot of scripture here, but none of them stick and show that the Marian Dogmas are contradicted by the Bible in any way. Mary also did not need to be bodily assumed to heaven like Enoch and Elijah, so they would not see death, supported by the earliest church tradition, indirectly supported by Scripture, and strongly implied by the dogma itself. Fair enough, Steve shaking his head no, but well leave it at that for now. So my question for you then would be what are some objections you hear from Protestants that when you hear them, you think, Oh goodness, you dont even understand the Catholic position. So starting with Trent. When Mary said, I know not man, in Luke 1:34, does this indicate a vow of perpetual virginity? Sep 29, 2021. Thanks for being a supporter mate. For example, a Mormon dogma that says that Jesus is not God contradicts scripture explicitly, such as in John 20:28, when Thomas sees Jesus and calls him, My Lord and my God. Implicitly would be liberal Catholics and Protestants who condone abortion, which contradicts scripture stating that life begins at conception, and scripture condemns the shedding of innocent blood. Steve, you are going to be beginning with 15 minutes. Mary always leads us to her son. So to talk about things that came up in this debate, there are things that came up that were not debating, things like Sola Scriptura, the history of the Marian dogmas. Some people might even accuse you of idolatry. What is pure fiction cannot be used as factual evidences. And I showed that when I cited Acts 21, 25, as well as other examples around the same time period. Many Protestant scholars say Wis-dom 2 either contains a messianic prophecy or Matthew used this passage as a template when he described Jesus crucifixion. As a matter of fact, if you want to, immediately after this debate, I made two videos. And Steve, stick around because Ive got one final question for both of you, but I wanted to say two things before I do that. This is hard, isnt it? Submit to my authority. Because as Steve agreed with me in this debate, the Greek word adelphos can mean adoptive sibling or half sibling. 23:2), some of whom were not Pharisees. Yes. I mean, I have to really think about that. Their issue is about the authority of the church. Hallow.com/mattfred, click the link in the description below. Obviously the Bible does not teach that every woman had sexual relations. Second thing I want to point out is you should consider joining our locals community. Please click that. You just have to join locals in the same way youd have to join Twitter or Facebook to get access to it. William Albrecht has done a lot of great work on Mary. 13K views, 25 likes, 6 loves, 7 comments, 12 shares, Facebook Watch Videos from Lake Effect Furniture and Mattress: Have you seen the latest commercial yet? Good day, Trent. Trent, whenever you begin, Ill click the five minute timer. And he told the Thessalonians who that was, but we dont know who that was, and [inaudible 01:06:25] biblical scholars have had many different answers and we dont know much the same this particular truth about whether Mary died or not. Okay. So to summarize then Steve Well, actually lets see. I mean, its not a good proof text to use. She didnt become sin either according to Roman Catholicism. Things like whether shes Mediatrix or Co-Redemprtix. Those would be irrelevant to the question. It just means somebody is wrong, whether it be me or another person who calls themselves Protestant that accepts these things. Mary doesnt take the place of Christ. Okay. And it all goes down to the authority of Scripture. Dr. Tony Costa and Steve Christie, The Issue of Canon and Sola Scriptura - The Council, Presuppositional Apologetics Round Up: Third week of August 2021 | The Domain for Truth, Response to Sam Shamoun's post Purgatory debate recap of Dr. Michael Brown against William Albrecht - The Council, Responding to Gary Michuta's Abel to Zechariah Counter-Arguments with Steve Christie & Paul - The Council, The Marian Dogmas Contradict Scripture, Trent Horn Vs. Steve Christie - The Council, Necessitarianism: Conceive of the Possibilities. Some people dont die at all. So Steve even admits that Jesus is an exception to the claims about the universality of sin. You mean the son of John? So thank you very much both you, God bless you, and stay safe out there. My wife and I literally were listening to Scott Hahn reading the Book of Romans as we were going as sleep last night. And the same is true for Mary. The Story of Reality: Apologist Greg Koukl Discusses His New Book. I believe all things are possible with God. The Protestant biblical scholar, Victor Hamilton, says, To say that Jesus is Marys prototokos is simply to say Mary had no child before she gave birth to Jesus. This is a term that refers to the child who opens the womb, and it makes sense that Luke would use prototokos because the term, firstborn, is later used in Luke 2:22 through 23 to talk about the purification rite and rite of presenting those who are the firstborn. It is because of my tremendous love and respect for the Mary of God [inaudible 01:48:45] Scripture, that I felt the responsibility to point out that the Mary of Roman Catholicism is not the same as the Mary of the Word of God. Well, a lot to cover here. It may be used this way in Acts 25:21 to say that Paul was held in custody until he was sent to Rome, even though he was still in Roman custody after that point. Another piece of evidence against Christies claim that divine revelation ceased during the time of the deuterocanonical books is that the people of Jesus time believed there were contemporary prophets who spoke on behalf of God, such as John the Baptist and Jesus. And, as it turns out, Christies book fails to produce any such standard. He serves as a staff apologist for Catholic Answers, where he specializes in teaching Catholics to graciously and persuasively engage those who disagree with them. Thats because they quoted primarily from the Septuagint, or the Greek Old Testament. All right. And so I think what I have shown is that all of these arguments that Steve has raised to try to show scripture contradicts the Marian Dogmas, it does no such thing. First, this debate is not about whether the Bible teaches the Marian Dogmas or even if the evidence shows that theyre true. I would ask him this question, you can answer it now or some other venue, who was the first Christian, like author, father, theologian, who held to the same theology that Steve does? All right. So if youre going to say Mary sinned because an offering was made, then youd also have to say that Jesus sinned as well. It would behoove us, then, to follow in their example and praise the gift of Gods word that comes to us in these writings and critically examine arguments such as those presented by Steve Christie that would tempt us to reject a portion of Gods sacred revelation. In Luke 3:1 its used to describe Herod Antipas and Herod Philip who had the same father, but they were born of different mothers, just as Jesus and his brethren were born of different mothers. How about Marys parents and Joseph who was from the same tribe who she was betrothed to? A person could be a Protestant, because we have to understand what a Protestant is and we have to go back to the Reformation for it. Greg is one of the leading apologists of our day and has had a huge impact on my personal and professional life. Just a weak reference to Mark chapter three. You would expect there to be deviations from it. So wed only asked does the bible teach that Mary had sexual relations. What we can find in the writings of the Church Fathers, however, are hundreds of citations of the deuterocanonical books as inspired Scripture. Yeah. So the Catholics authority is not balanced on a three legged stool of the Magisterium, sacred tradition, and holy Scripture, but on a one-legged stool of the Magisterium, which subjectively determines what Scripture and tradition are and how to interpret them. So then the word adelphos could also apply in this case to describe people that they have the same adoptive father, Joseph, but different mothers, Josephs first wife and his second wife. Now Steve said that Matthew 1:25, and others have said this, based off the doctoral work of Eric [Svenson 00:26:02], that the Greek construction [foreign language 00:26:06] in this verse always demands a reversal of condition. Though I will say, as were going through them, I feel like Steves case is sort of like that tree in front of my house is a bush Im always trying to get just right, but they end up clipping so many parts off of it, its just a bunch of empty branches sitting there. Okay. No, thats not the case. Christie scored 163 points for the Bucs in 1990-91 and became an NFL free agent after two seasons, signing a free agent contract in 1992 with the Buffalo Bills. Download it once and read it on your Kindle device, PC, phones or tablets. But let me get to that point about death though. Peter - A Leader in Apologetics How many times have you heard the Apostle Peter portrayed as the brash fisherman whose mouth was always several steps ahead of his brain? . Without separating the Marian dogmas from them are where these much, much later Marian dogmas developed from and later forced into the text, which would have been foreign to the biblical writers. As far as original sin, if you look at catholic.com, the encyclopedia, it states that The Second Council of Orange, it states that, The death of the body, which is the punishment for sin. In other words, sin results in death of the body. Christiaan Kappes. It is forbidden to any man to change this, to oppose and counter it. But when we look at something like Strongs for example, are you aware that Strongs defines adelphos and adelphe the same way? So does the Bible say Mary gave birth to anyone besides Jesus? The 33-yard field goal came with just :35 to play, giving the Bills a win over the Titans, who had knocked them out of the playoffs the year before. Though, I think that is a salvation issue actually. The earliest codex we have is the tenth-century-A.D. Aleppo codex, and it places the book of Chronicles at the beginning of the Writings (or ketuvim) and not as the last book of the Hebrew bible. Its like, because-. The apostle Paul affirms this in 1 Corinthians 15:22, In Adam all die. Meaning all of mankind spiritually, including Mary, which Paul clarifies in verses 47 to 49. Steve, where can people learn more about you and the good stuff youve done? And I could talk about what that verse means in a lot of different context, but what is the difference between being sinful and becoming sin? He might bring it up in his rebuttal. Give me a second here. And my contention is that if Adam had not fallen and inherited original sin, he would not have died. Yeah. Sure. So even if that dogma is defined ex cathedra by a pope, by an ecumenical council, or by the magisterium, if it contradicts scripture, that dogma must be rejected. They point us to Jesus Christ. He would end up playing two years for the Buccaneers. 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